Is Online Poker Rigged?

Because of my Online Poker is Rigged parody post as well as the many posts I’ve done on why online poker is not rigged I get a lot of heat from rigtards.  Rigtard is a name I ran across on 2+2 that is used to describe the constant stream of ZOMG ONLINE POKER IZ SO RIGGEDZ 1!1!1! posts on the message boards.  I like it.  It really is a fitting name.  No matter how many times I say don’t bother contacting me unless you have some evidence some rigtard always leaves a comment or sends me an email using my contact page to tell me that even though he doesn’t have any actual evidence he’s convinced online poker is rigged.

Most of the time I just delete them from my inbox and go on with my life.  But this guy has earned a special place in my heart.  I don’t know if he just hit me on the right day in the right mood but for whatever reason I decided to engage this guy in some debate.

I was posting about my experiences with this guy on Twitter and a few people asked that I share the email conversation.  So here it is for your enjoyment.

Here was one of his original emails to me.  He actually emailed me multiple times using my contact form before my initial response so Gmail put them in separate threads.  I’m just including this thread as it is the one that has the core of our debate.

Just read your blog???? well since you work for a company who designs this
RIGGED software i offer you the ultimate test. 6 player game you get casino
hand delt 6 player cards i get online 6 player delt cards we both take top 2
hands and see who has the best . £1,000 a deal 100 deals. Again
you get casino delt hands i have online computer delt cards,,. If site is not
enhanced all should be about level but as a semi pro i know you will lose 2/1
plus. Should you wish to take up this offer im sure the press would be very
interested
V.

I don’t know.  Did you just read my blog?  Why is that a question?  Obviously someone doesn’t know what punctuation comes at the end of a statement and which to use at the end of a question.

My response:

Well, nice to see you know very little about variance.  Could explain why you think the game is rigged.

I would take your challenge but only for a substantially larger number of hands.  50,000 - 100,000 would be a large enough hand sample size to determine if skewed results were a result of variance or rigged decks.

You do understand why 100 deals is ridiculous don’t you?  Even if we were to flip coins, 100 flips could produce massively skewed results.

And he responded:

Bill lets go name one site that rests for MATHMATICAL PROBABILITY thet test for everything but.If you dont think sites are enhanced lets get some press and do the bet. I play semi pro 30-40 hours a week im no green horn. If you have any data at all that shows where MATHMATICAL PROBABILITY IS TESTED I WILL VIEW IT WITH INTEREST.
V.

Now, one of the things you’ll quickly notice is that it’s very difficult to decipher what the hell this guy is talking about.  Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt and try to translate it still doesn’t make sense.  For instance:

Bill lets go name one site that rests for MATHMATICAL PROBABILITY thet test for everything

So let’s assume it’s simply typos and what he meant to say was “Bill, let’s go name one site that tests for mathematical probability that tests for everything.”  WTF does that even mean?  It looks like he started off the sentence with one thought in mind and then went off in another direction but didn’t bother to edit himself so as to make any sense.  “Bill, let’s go name one site . . . “  Let’s go?  What?!?  And then he wants me to name one site that tests for mathematical probability that tests for everything.  What in the hell does that mean?

And why, why, why do people always have to throw their level of playing experience into the debate?  Does it matter?

I responded:

No, not a semi-pro . . . hahaha

If you want data, go look in the 2+2 forums where guys like you have been getting beat up by other semi and actual pro players for making baseless claims for well over a decade.  I really don’t have time to educate you on a personal level.

I’m sure they would love for one more ZOMG!!! ONLINE POKER IS THE RIGGEDZ post.

He is obviously fixated on this challenge he’s posed to me.  I was actually thinking of taking him up on it too.  But with different terms.  Fifty thousand hands dealt live and fifty thousand online hands.  If the online hands are within expected ranges then he pays me 100,000 GBP.  If not, I’ll give him 100,000 GBP.

Ok i will see what ul press interest we can raise and you fully understand that we get the online hands and you get the live delt hands.
How can you honestly say your programs reflect mathmatical probability,As i said show me tests on this. online flops are action flops in most cases probability of theses flops and connecting hands between 2 players defies all mathmatics but i do give you the fact we need more deals.

V

Before I could respond he fired off another message.  This will become a pattern as you’ll see later.  He’s not really interested in a response.  He just likes shouting into the wind.

Bill you presume I lose online lol im a winner but just because i win doesnt mean I have to say site is honest as its not its enhanced rigged defies MATHMATICAL PROBABILITY. WHERE ARE THESE TESTS OF MATHMATICAL PROBABILITY?? V

This time I get a chance to respond:

You didn’t read much of what I wrote on the subject did you?

You do realize that the poker room would make far more money dealing dead flops than action flops.  Do the math.  As max rake is usually capped, the poker room’s advantage is in dealing more hands, not bigger pots.

He counters:

I take it that you have never been a gambler?? I used to gamble lots and turned this into an art form poker. I dont gamble and havnt for years but i do fully understand the gambler. Your comments are incorrect as action flops get the gambler buzzing leading to over betting leading to increased calls from rocks. This all adds up to you guessed it INCREASED RAKE. V

I’m really not sure what the hell he intends to accomplish by telling me he’s a gambler.  He somehow turned gambling into an art form (WTF does that mean?) but he hasn’t gambled for years.  The two ways I can take that is that either he was a good gambler or he realized how futile it is and gave it up.  So if he was good at gambling (is there such a thing?) why quit?  And if he was some degenerate then why does he think his opinion holds any weight?

My response:

Where did I say that you lose online?  Geez, no wonder you’re such a paranoid lunatic.

I’m laughing at you because you think I might be impressed by your claims of being a semi-pro.  I’m laughing at you because if you went on 2+2 which is more or less a forum full of players from beginners all the way up to WSOP winners they would verbally gang rape you for the complete idiocy of your statements.

You’re just another random guy from the internet who claims online poker is rigged with no actual data.  You want the world to stop spinning to listen to your completely baseless claims.

If you want the challenge I proposed and you actually have £100,000 to wager go onto 2+2 you’ll get plenty of takers.

Now you have to pop back up to the response where he said that online poker is rigged for action flops.  I know it’s confusing because there are two different threads of discussion just in this thread.  He was also going off in another thread which is why I didn’t include that one as this one is confusing enough by itself.

Here I am responding to the rigged action flops accusation.

As they say at university:  Nice theory, now show your work.

Please show the math on how action flops lead to more rake.  If you comb around the site, I’ve already done the math to prove you wrong.

He responds:

Bill please send any test data that you have that proves mathmatical probability is reflected in your program i will read and study top to bottom. Hard cold facts always interest me but please stick to tests that prove mathmatical probability. I will leave you with a cash game fact from last week, My cards were running bad very bad so i made it a point to play faily tight. 7 hours and 20 minutes later it was 8am and i hadnt played a single hand. 78 suited was enough to play but as i said over 7 hours and no play. Onlin lol i decide to play tight though there are 3 to 4 times as many hands delt i have never managed to not bet or call a hand outside of 15 minutes, Why is this im more lucky online lol no its enhanced. V

How the hell do you play poker for 7 hours and not have a playable hand?  Is it even possible?  Assuming 30 hands an hour, multiplied by seven hours, that’s 210+ hands. The best hand he’s dealt out of 210 hands is 78s?  Something tells me this joker has some very selective memory and a wild imagination.

Again, he responds to a previous email which I believe is the one where I tell him to go ahead and issue his challenge on 2+2

wow your full of yourself lets stick to facts shall we?????? facts theses tests that prove online sites are mathamaticaly random where are they ??? I ask for data you send me 2+2 your full of words but please provide these test results and if there are none to shut down all the bad blog add this test?? V

I’m sending this to the NSA, CIA, and FBI to see if the can decipher this code.  It appears to be in English but it’s obviously some sort of coded message.  Maybe this guy is planning a terrorist attack.  The fact that every sentence, whether statement or question, ends in a question mark is the telltale sign.

Now, if you’re keeping score.  I still have yet to respond.  But that doesn’t stop him from sending yet another email.

Wow how many people answering me You claim is honest no action flops well show me the tesyts you are the guys who say you test for mathamatical probability i will have uni test if you wana go public b4 the test. V

How many?  I have no idea.  How many voices do you hear in your head?

Finally I respond:

Are you serious?  You realize you disprove your own argument, don’t you?  If you went 7 hours and 20 minutes without getting a hand in the top 20% of all starting hands do the freakin’ math!!!!  The live game is the one that seems statistically abnormal.

You might try reading this thread.  It took me so much work to find.  I went to 2+2 and typed “rigged” in the search box.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/random-distribution-analysis-429714/

Don’t come back until you’ve read the entire thread and all of the articles it links to.  When you are done, you can come an apologize.

At this point I decide I should start having fun with him.  I mean, if you can’t make fun of the mentally unstable who can you make fun of?

And I’m serious about not coming back until you’ve read everything.  I will be giving you a test and if you can’t pass the test then I don’t answer any more of your emails.  Bad dog.

He responds:

easy meat ???????????????????????// did you not say that we need a six figure test of hands . My point was an odd fact that from time to time comes up in live play (as it should online if not rigged for action) I suggest that you stay away from live poker i would eat you alive you tilt so easy and cant recall your own actions from just a few minutes ago. but back to these tests on mathmatical probability please email them V

WTF is easy meat and why does it deserve 23 question marks and two slashes?

Another email from him:

Well done we cut to the chase and you run. Please forward all tests that you say you do to reflecttrue probability. V

I respond:

I sent you a link to the tests.  Several people link to publicly available tests.  If you’re either too lazy or too stupid to read the thread then that’s on you and we’re done talking.

For those who can’t be bothered with the 2+2 thread there is a link to some studies done by a player who analyzed a large HH database and concluded that you get dealt specific hands roughly as expected and that hands complete (pocket pairs make sets, flushes and straights complete, etc) basically as often as they should.

He responds:

Well your full of bull read what i write SEND TEST RESULTS  not gossip and here say na. Random was used bad bad, Do you ynderstand the differance between random and TOTALY RANDOM???? DOUBT IT YOUR TO FAR UP YOUR OWN A FIVE FIVE. Listen you say you work on this software and its TOTALY RANDOM (refkects true probability) Well send me the test results and take those blinkers off and see the light????

ONLINE POKER IS BENT DISHONEST BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU. SEND ME THE TEST RESULTS THAT TEST MATHMATICAL PROBABILITY NOT SOMEONES SHALLOW OPION.

Now, I’m pretty sure I have him on tilt which is funny because just a few emails ago he was claiming he had me tilted.

One funny/interesting aside; he ends his fist sentence saying “na” which Thais use at the end of a lot of sentences to mean “ok?”.  So in Thai someone might say, “Take care of yourself na.”

I don’t know if it is one of his many nonsensical random words thrown in or if he really meant “na.”  It is fitting there.  Send test results and not gossip, na?

Also, why say A Five Five?  Why not just type A55 if you mean ass?

And he doesn’t want to be sent shallow opinions but his entire argument here is . . . his shallow opinion.  He’s not even good enough to Google around for data.  Plenty of it exists and you can refute the data or question the testing methodology but it’s completely pointless to run up to someone and demand that they prove that online poker isn’t rigged.  Why should they?  What’s in it for them?  If it’s rigged, quit playing.  I don’t give a damn.  Why is it my responsibility?

There are a lot of games that are rigged.  Three Card Monte.  Anything involving wallnut shells and peas.  That game where you have to knock the cans off the stand at the carnival.  And you know what?  I don’t play those games!  I don’t go around looking for people to prove to me that they’re not rigged.  I simply don’t play them.  Why do rigtards insist on playing a game they claim is rigged?  What does that say about their level of intelligence?

If you play online poker and you think it’s rigged you’re an IDIOT!!  Going around and telling people that you think it’s rigged but you continue to play is like tattooing “I’m retarded” on your forehead.

So at this point, I’m more or less done with him.  He didn’t really read the thread, has no real argument, and is becoming increasingly unstable.  So I decide to throw him over the edge by ignoring him.

I’m sorry.  You failed.  Our conversation is over.

What follows are a series of emails he’s sent.  The above is the last email he’s received from me.  At this point he’s talking into the wind.  And remember, these are over the course of several days so he sends an email, stews, and then the next day he fires off another.

Yes you go run off come the test you know its rigged you know theres no test for mathmatical probability as this would expose the sham. The site you sent me to tests randomness lol lol lol lol lets discuss the goal posts programmed into this randomness. It is now time for me to where my shirt at the next poker torn i play exposeing this con. Look out for my genuine web site in the near feature. I hope your lack of knowledge on rigged poker didnt embarress you to much. NOTE TEST MATHMATICAL PROBABILITY NOT randomness there a mile apart in meaning. V

I would love to see someone walk into a casino and sit down with a “I’m a rigtard.  I believe online poker is rigged.  I have no evidence but I’m a semi-pro player so I know.” t-shirt.

Another:

Anothr guy given limited skills takes on the enlightened and comes unstuck????? try telling tales to 5 year olds GL bud

Another:

Well no test results i see You state you work for software company and yet you have no tests of math probability, that stinks. Did enjoy 2+2 i find im not alone and many players have discoverd your site are indeed bent. It is clearly time to get an EU based company who is ruled by the gaming board then move to get bent software barred in the way that the americans closed poker sites. Thanx for the 2+2 lead. V

Now, if you did read the 2+2 thread it’s basically a bunch of people calling the rigtards, well, rigtards.  So somewhere in there he found the one voice that agreed with him and he feels validated.  Twenty people explaining why making baseless claims without evidence is retarded and two people questioning whether or not online poker is rigged . . . yes, you are not alone.

Also, many operators are licensed within the EU.  Malta is in the EU and has the License and Gaming Authority (LGA).  Gibraltar is kinda, sorta in the EU.  They have the their own regulatory body.  The Alderney Gaming Commission is also in Europe.  So, uh, yeah, I guess some company should start offering poker in the EU.  I mean, other than the several dozen who already are.

Another

JUST COMPLETED 320 HANDS ALL INS 68% OF 25% FAV OR WORSE WON YOU CHEATS

I’m not even sure what that one means.  68% of all-ins where he was a 25% favorite or worse, he won?

Another

hELLO MR OUR SOFTWARE REFKECTS NATH PROBABILITY. HAVE PLAYED 23 HANDS SEEN 2 FOUR OF A KINDS BOTH FLOPPED ACE KING AND STRAIGHT FLUSH ANOTHER HAND FULL HOUSE 2 OF AND SEVERAL SUC OUTS AS ALWAYS FROM UNDER DOG. YOU EITHER ARE QUIRE DUMB OR LIE TO PROTECT YOUR COMPANY. ONLINE IS SO BENT

photocred goes to figlioDiOrfeo♥

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